Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

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Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:19 pm

Disregard everything I ever said on the subject. I change my answer to this:

Here's another example: Final Fantasy VII. One of the most popular RPGs ever made (though I'm more fond of FFIX) and the most popular entry in the Final Fantasy series and the ending was terrible.


A bit of context, this appears in a big damn Flame War where people are arguing over the Mass Effect 3 ending. One of the members had apparently changed their name to "Commander Shepherd" at some point & is vehemently defending it, at one point claiming that it being declared falsely advertised will "cripple gaming." No, really, I can't make that up. But these are far from the only embarrassing quotes to be found. For example, here's "Captain Shepherd" explaining why your choices really DO drive the plot:

Instead of fucking focusing on the ending, how's about we ALLLL think about all the other shit you changed through your choices? Did you get Tali on the admiralty board? Or was she in hiding? Did you save the Quarian fleet or did you decide fuck it and go elsewhere for a bit? Did you manage to save your Virmire survivor or did you royally fuck it up?

Or, as another user puts it:

These things happened. Whether you got to the ending or didn't, it didn't magically make these events un-happen. It happened.

I like to call this the Crisis Core Argument, because Crisis Core is one of the most linear games in the FF series, yet according to this argument, it isn't. You see, you can do hundreds of extra missions, many of which are mercenary jobs taken for clients ranging from Yuffie to the Science Department, obtain secret Materia, join up to 5 fan clubs (including your own), supply a reporter with information about Shinra, help build Tifa's Seventh Heaven, build up to 3 different wagons for Aerith, & open Vincent's coffin. Or you could not.

If I'm speaking Greek, you could also call it the "Argument from Sidequests." It is essentially saying that the more optional content there is, the more your choices drive the plot. Of course, if you actually know anything about RPGs at all, you know damn well this isn't true.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:09 am

The game itself does have multiple branching paths in the story, optional and not optional, however people are not upset about any supposed linearity in the game, quite the opposite. We're upset about the bottlenecking of the storyline, which up until this point had been wildly branching, to 3 "different" endings which are actually the same ending with a different colored explosion. Also upsetting, you could play as a paragon, good, or as a renegade, bad, for three full games, and you still have the option to get the same exact ending (and not even a middle ending, but all possible endings are open to the player no matter what). That... shouldn't happen. Also upsetting was the blatant plot holes and shitty writing at the end, which, once again, had been free of plot holes, and some of video games best writing to date.

"Organic races are destined to make synthetic life forms that will kill them, so to save organic races I made synthetic life forms that will kill them."

The most jarring part is that your character can't even be like, "Uh, no, I just spent 3 games getting beaten over the head as to why that isn't true, or did you not play any of those Geth missions?" You just kind of look at him dumbly, and accept his word (a space magic 'star child') as golden. Then choose one of three different modules to fix the problem. Why did those constructs even fucking exist?! Why was there literally an off button to the main bad guy, and why did no one find it before?! Fucking stupid.

It is dumb, he is dumb, FSTDT is dumb.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:24 am

The game itself does have multiple branching paths in the story, optional and not optional, however people are not upset about any supposed linearity in the game, quite the opposite. We're upset about the bottlenecking of the storyline, which up until this point had been wildly branching, to 3 "different" endings which are actually the same ending with a different colored explosion.

Anything not in quotes is my best paraphrasing. I don't know shit about Mass Effect, so I just put it in the best terms I could think of. That is not to say the Dumbass Formerly Known As Shane isn't strawmanning, because he probably is, but don't get too hung up on any words that aren't quoted.

Also upsetting was the blatant plot holes and shitty writing at the end, which, once again, had been free of plot holes, and some of video games best writing to date.

This was a complaint the other side was making. There was a counter for it, by Waldorf, in the same post where he explains how FFVII had a bad ending:

Here's a great example: Knights of the Old Republic 2. The game was released unfinished. It had quests that had no end and had an entire fucking section of the game cut out because they couldn't finish it on time. It literally had no proper ending and what semblance of an ending there was was filled with plot holes, confusing nonsense that had no lead up or resolution and made absolutely no goddamn sense. Did that invalidate the entire game? No, it did not. The game was otherwise great[...]the ending does not invalidate what is otherwise considered a great game. Since when has gaming become about nothing but the destination? Why do people complain about 4 hour single player campaigns if they're going to think the ending the is the only thing that matters?
.

I don't see where this idea of "you can't change your opinion if the quality changes" comes from. I can definitely see how a bad ending might spoil enjoyment of the story.

It is dumb,

Sounds like it.

he is dumb,

There is more than one, but generally yes.

FSTDT is dumb.

Sadly.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:40 am

Kotor's ending was bad, but it wasn't an entire departure thematically, and gameplaywise. Mass Effect's was. Imagine if in FFX where the whole game builds up to an emotional resolution with your dad, you instead only find Yu Yevon, who denounces Father/ Son relationships entirely, and Tidus is all, "Yea, I guess you're right." That is the kind of jarring thematic shift that the game takes. To bring it back to Kotor, imagine if instead of ending the Star Forge, Revan was all, "You know what, the Force doesn't even matter. Fuck these lightsabers."

I'm not saying Mass Effect didn't have one of the best 30 hour runs in video games, it did. I'm saying that the last five minutes mar it in such a way that I can ignore how good it just was. Imagine the best sex of your life ending with castration.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:47 am

I only understood that last analogy.

The one potentially interesting thing in the thread is the legal claims of false advertising. I'm not sure where I stand on that. Making a lawsuit over it sounds kind of ridiculous, but it is kind of refreshing to see fans not accepting any half-assed game they're presented with, & doing something to improve quality.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:51 am

It wasn't a lawsuit, it was a write up with the Better Business Bureau or some shit. The worst EA could have experienced was a fine and some bad PR. Basically it was true, the game producer literally said in promotional material that the game wouldn't have an "A, B, C, type of ending." It did.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:07 am

Ah. Then at least one person straw-manned.

Now I'm REALLY not understanding the outrage. Literally, I cannot think of a single reason why that's any reason to get pissed off, save for rabid fanboyism. Literally, this is Shane's response to being told they kind of have it coming & probably won't suffer too much for it:

If I had a nickel for every time I felt like I was 'lied to by a marketing department' I could buy a new goddamn hero car.

Instead of fucking focusing on the ending, how's about we ALLLL think about all the other shit you changed through your choices? Did you get Tali on the admiralty board? Or was she in hiding? Did you save the Quarian fleet or did you decide fuck it and go elsewhere for a bit? Did you manage to save your Virmire survivor or did you royally fuck it up?

The end does not make the journey and I'm sick of everyone whining about how it does. You know what your choices in life give you? Death. Maybe earlier maybe later. But you still get death.

You're told in plenty of other games you can choose how you go about things. But in the end you get to the same exact ending. Yet nobody seems to bitch about any of that. You go into a movie expecting something and you get something completely different. Remember Sucker Punch? Everyone thought it was just going to be gratutitous and showing girls in anime clothes using big swords and guns. But when they got in there it ended up being something else. Why? Because you do not give away the entire movie in previews.

There is no satisfaction guarantee on a piece of entertainment like that. There shouldn't be. Upset you saw it in theaters? Too fucking bad no refund for you, should've rented it if you were that unsure or too quick to jump on tickets.

Let's see... *looks through game library* AH! RAGE! Yes. Rage. Oooh fuck do I have a story for that. I was told the driving was optional. It isn't. Not really. ohhhh no. Nope. You have to in order to progress! YEP! Better go fucking complain to the BBB that I was lied to by Bethesda. But I didn't, because I felt that there might be a part for the cars. There's always a catch in something.

Skyrim... yes, Skyrim. I was promised that depending on who I sided with things would be epic. Nothing changed after the civil war. I didn't get to see it. Not really. Should I complain? I still had to go after the real bad guys, like usual.

How about you knock off the whole 'how dare game companies do this'? Because believe you me there are a lot worse sins by game companies than this and everyone is ignoring them.

I do not understand this level of incoherent rage over what you seem to be telling me is essentially a strong lecture & a parking ticket.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:14 am

Yea, it isn't a lawsuit... it wouldn't even amount to EA or Bioware being blacklisted on consumer websites.

Also, I'm ignoring half of that post because he is stupid on quite possibly extradimentional levels.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:19 am

I could have told you that much.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Azena on Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:07 am

I've ignored the complaints of the ending? Is it ideal, fuck no. But Mass Effect has been my favorite game series ever and short of having made Mass Effect 3 turn into a RTS game, nothing could ruin that for me. All I wanted was closure. I hated how they just end it and don't say shit about it. But, that is supposedly getting fixed in this ending DLC.

Do I wish for a better ending that really revolved around my choices over three games? Hell yes. But, I know the value held on 'artistic choices' and telling Bioware that they fucked up and the end is shit is like telling Hitler that Jews are all right.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:18 am

It didn't ruin the series, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Speaking of closure, that is what I don't get from the ending. I mean, the game's ending is so bad even the final boss disobeyed direct orders and tried to keep you away from it.

His name was Marauder Shields... He will be missed.



Also: Neo, this is how Memetic Badass memes start.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Azena on Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:28 am

lol I was wondering what that was all about. I kept seeing people talk about PS3 with it so I thought since Sony won't let them have N7 Weekends, that they were getting a new DLC character xD
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:39 am

No, first it started that he was the final boss. Now the common joke is that he was trying to save Shepard from the shitty ending.

His name was Marauder Shields...
Never forget.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:44 pm

Also: Neo, this is how Memetic Badass memes start.

People being stupid?

Azena: I've ignored it until now because, frankly, I don't give a shit about Mass Effect. However, when that thread was brought to my attention, I had to say something about the absolute fanwankery.

Also, I'm still trying to figure out how the ending of FFVII was "terrible." Do you know how the previous installment ended? They fly over some generic greenery. Not only that, it's positively riddled with plot holes & contrived circumstances. Why is Terra in any position to lead them out of the collapsing tower when it's everyone's first time there? Why does she need to fly to do it, can't she direct them from the deck of the airship? How do you kill the God of Magic with magic?

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:30 am

Pretty sure everyone hated VII because they alluded to the fact that humanity might be wiped out by the lifestream, or something like that, and the ending only shows Red XIII alive.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:18 am

That is because the ending was 500 years later. The rest of the party WAS dead. Not because they got wiped out by the Lifestream. That is incredibly retarded, & anyone who got that out of it wasn't reading closely.

Not that I'm one to talk, considering I thought Aerith came back to life when I first saw it.

Still, that slight degree of vagueness has nothing on previous titles. Do you know whether or not Garland is still evil? I don't.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:07 pm

FFI's story is about as deep at a DnD campaigns. Sure, you got some good ideas, but when you bring up plot holes the DM is all like, "Bro, calm down, it isn't that serious." Also, pointing out that VII is only the seventh in a long line of shitty endings doesn't stop it from being a shitty ending.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:17 pm

I have to have a baseline to compare it to, & it isn't exactly fair to compare it to something modern. We're talking about FF's first usage of computer generated cutscenes. There is only so much they could even do with the ending without adding another disc.

On a similar note, I's contemporaries were what, Space Invaders?

Anyway, VII does what an ending is supposed to do. It wraps the story up with as few plot holes as possible. And, if you ask me, it is actually more memorable than some more "detailed" or "advanced" endings. X had Yuna give a whole speech on what she learned, but damned if I can remember any of it. Meanwhile, I could probably reproduce VII's line-for-line.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:23 pm

Did VII's even have any lines of dialogue? In saying that, I can't remember VII's well at all, though I could give you the run down of IX's ending.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Seraph on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:23 pm

tbf you're a big fan of VII so saying its ending is more memorable than some of the others is a bit biased, even if its completely true.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:28 pm

Cloud & Tifa talk about meeting Aerith at the Promised Land, while watching Meteor, Red XIII explains that Meteor is too close to the Planet so Holy's actually doing more harm than good, Cait Sith says he told the residents of Midgar to take shelter but now it doesn't look like it's going to matter, Tifa's all "zomg makoworms!" & then I had to change my pants.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:29 pm

I remember like... half of that. If that.

In fairness VII wasn't my fave, and I was kind of meh on it in general.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Neo Bahamut on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:40 pm

I recall your bald faced lie that Materia was dumb.

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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Seraph on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:40 pm

I'm kinda meh on VII, VIII, X+ in general.

I like IX and Type-0.
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Re: Why I Left FSTDT (Or A Vidya Game Thread)

Post by Script-Z on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:43 pm

I love IX, and X. VI, and VII were kind of meh. II was really good. VIII is utter shit, as much as I hate Materia, Drawing, and Junctioning are even worse.
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